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Since the Bible is sufficient for all of life, should we rule out psychology in counseling?

Frames Since the Bible is sufficient for all of life, should we rule out psychology in counseling?

Description Since the Bible is sufficient for all of life, should we rule out psychology in counseling?

Comments Since the Bible is sufficient for all of life, should we rule out psychology in counseling?

Absolutely not The best, and most effective, is to integrate faith into clinical counseling Comment from : Matt B

Psychology and counseling are quite recent inventions, little more than a century old and, invented by people like Karl Jung who clearly stated they wanted to end ChristianitybrAm yet, as a Christian, to see a man thoroughly helped by counseling and psychological therapybrWhen we purport to replace the category of sin, it is inevitable we will replace the categories of good and evil with justifications like determinism which are quite unhelpful Comment from : Joseph Mungai

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after ChristbrColossians 2:8 Comment from : David William S Guarin

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straightbrProverbs 3:5-6 Comment from : David William S Guarin

Michael Horton completely mischaracterizes the Reformers True the Reformers never rejected science, but both Luther and Calvin clearly taught that science and secular knowledge must be in subjection to the scriptures, it was the role of science to support scripture and if science ever conflicted with Scripture it must be rejected The whole notion that there could be any type of scientific field that could arrive at useful knowledge divorced from God was rejected by the Reformers Modern secular medicine, ( that teaches that men can become women or that life does not begin at conception and euthanized elderly people) would have been utterly rejected by the reformers and so would be the entire fields of psychology and psychiatry Same applies to physics (the big bang theory), biology (evolution), geology ( that claims rocks are older than 6500 years), astronomy (that claims stars are millions or billions of years old instead of 6500 years old), all this junk and fake knowledge the Reformers would have rejected as the vanity of man and not scientific knowledge Michael Horton is not a Christian, his testimony in his video is not Christian, and he may profess to believe in Christ but does not, otherwise he would know better and reject all science that denies that the Word created the universe and every single creature that roams the earth 6500 years ago plus or minus and not billions of years ago Comment from : henrka

We are supposed to make disciples The Word of God renews our mind and empowers us through the Truth to lay down our flesh! It is there where we experience the resurrection power of ChristbrRomans 8:6 and 2Timothy 2:11&12 Comment from : 4thetruth62

We must draw clear lines of distinction between the physical sciences (astronomy, biology, physiology, etc) and the pseudo-sciences (sociology, psychology, etc), especially when it comes to counseling suffering people The notion of biological causation for mental "disorders" inevitably resulted in eugenic theory and the devastation that followed, and must be rejected by the Church Sadly the Christian community has largely bought into the construct of "mental illness" when in fact the term is arbitrary and not grounded in any physical abnormality Dr Daniel Berger's work in this area offers a paradigm shift in the way we do soul care Comment from : Miles Rains

If our churches taught us what Proverbs REALLY teaches we would know more about PEOPLE Pastors think they have the ability to deal with the “Wicked” and “The wolf in sheeps clothing” They do not unless they are aware of ALL the nuancesof human behaviour Satan masquerades as an angel of light and some people hiding in the church are more full of him than the Spirit of God The Bible shows us what God does about it but does not describe in detail how it functions or what interactions work with it And Pastors think every marriage in the church could not be a lovely Christian duped by a wolf But EVERYONE is deceivable Comment from : Shelley D

Come on, Godfrey! I love your views on the Psalms, but finding the ideal in common grace is not Reformed Sure, it'd be nice to find a Calvinist Psychologist But what if one isn't available? That's the question Horton is getting at Comment from : Kerry Baldwin

The fact that this question is even asked, shows the absolute trainwreck that modern evangelicalism is Comment from : Emilio G

Respectfully, I agree with most of Ligonier but this is very wrong Comment from : Tim Schlum

I really enjoyed the answer, until the point Dr Horton concludes I am not sure if the conclusion follows the argument Nevertheless, where is the biblical counselor to debate the question? Why people think anyone can discuss Practical Theology and ignore the theologian who are working and producing in the area? Comment from : Jonatas Abdias

The very fact that this is a question is incedibly confusing (to me) in and of itself Comment from : curiousgeorge555

I'm sorry, but the first teacher I don't think is right here He never quotes the Bible and in fact, he says if someone suggested to "pray and read the Bible" that it would be a disservice But how and why? Is this man under the assumption that a counselor would not open up the Bible and teach and guide his or her counselee to what the Scripture says? Is He saying God's word is not sufficient? He equates biology with many theories and ideas that have been posited by men Freud, Marx, Roger, Piaget etc Observed people and made their own conclusions Many of these conclusions were made with presuppositions devoid of God Biology, Physics, Chemistry is observable and can be tested Psychology by contrast often had mix results for things that can be tested So as a Christian I would rather rest my life on the certainty of God's word Comment from : Andrew Vacaflor Vids

Wow Do you need to have a Christian Orthopedic Surgeon to put a cast on a broken leg?brHow is it, Mr I'm Just an Historian, that we need to make sure that any doctor we see agrees with our theology? I like what the first man said, and he's absolutely correct Insisting that we have nothing to do with God's common grace in psychiatrists as well as car mechanics (my example) is insulting to God's common grace and kindness to us all brI wish Christians didn't "spiritualize" psychological illness so much They don't do that with physical illness! Would anyone fault RC Sproul for seeing a doctor for what ailed him who didn't agree with his theology? Comment from : S Carpenter

I don’t believe in psychology because it’s man’s philosophy, I believe man needs God’s truths and to be born again, now I do believe in psychiatry and chemical deficiencies, but only Jesus can give you the peace that goes beyond human understanding Comment from : Rockin Paul

T y DrHorton, I am a Licensed Professional Counselor who trained at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary I am a Calvanist who sat under James Boice's teaching We are out here serving the Church in Philly Have been for 25 years Comment from : John Tobey

This discussion, while accommodating to psychologists, the mentally ill, etc really does show Protestantism’s fundamental ineptitude when it comes to boots on the ground spiritual guidance for the mentally ill The Church has been doing this for a couple thousand years—nobody ever read the desert fathers in seminary? Have they ever read the spiritual science of the ancient church? Mercy Comment from : Struggling at Home

👎🏼👎🏼For Ligonier on this topic Comment from : Matthew James

Lol…Better be a Calvinist psychologist not a Palagian? brbrSuch thinking definitely doesn’t come from Sola Scriptura Comment from : Brandon Stahl

Go BEYOND Calvinism in vetting a counselor or psych professional Bring the whole counsel of God and His discernment into the decision-making process And if one chooses to receive therapy or counseling (they can differ), they should "test" what they're told with Scripture If it's sound, it's usable If it's anti-Biblical, it's not Many secular practitioners tend to deny the spiritual, trivialize it, or embrace Eastern mysticism (to address matters of the mind, will, and emotions, ie the "soul") But not all do Comment from : AlphaMegaRadio Podcast

I’m more confused than before I watched this Comment from : Naomi

the term "secular" is being used here, ignorantly or otherwise, as a wide-range cover for the fact that psychology is very clearly occultic in terms of origin, content, and practice Psychiatry also mixes in the use of dangerous toxic drugs, which is makes the problem worse Comment from : radornkeldam

Psychology and Counseling isn’t the same thing Comment from : TZ A

Nothing secular based will counsel the Spirit, that is reserved to the Holy Spirit and individuals chosen by him to help Anyone choosing secular means should expect secular results Its simple, you are in the flesh or you are in the Spirit, neither feeds the latter Medical issues, truly requiring medicine, clearly require secular council Comment from : Sword and Shield

“Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power”br‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:8, 10‬ Comment from : TZ A

Psychology seems to the responsibility a way from our sins as being a problem Comment from : mark litton

There are Biblical Counseling Services Comment from : Robert Davis

YES, psychology will be the new world order religion, i promise you thatbrbrBecause it has to do with only yourself fixing yourself, nothing to do with God Comment from : Kris L

Is Bible not enough? is the Holy Spirit not Enought? Do we need a new Parakletos? Do we need psychological and psychitric discoveries to add up to the God's Revelation? How reliable are those discoveries? To the same reliability of God's Word? "Deceitful is the man's heart more than anything" what therapy did Moses need to overcome his lack of good speaking? What therapy or pill did Eliah need when he wanted not to live anymore? What therapy or pill did David need to overcome the stress the death of Absolom brought to his life?brThis video is unbareable for me Comment from : danny boy

The secular doctors are way ahead of untrained pastors It is now established that three illnesses are started and maintained by bad gut bacteria: endogenous depression, type-2 diabetes, and Alzheimers I got cured of severe depression by taking powerful antibiotics meant for a sinus infection I knew the cause was bad gut bacteria because five foods were giving me severe depression The antibiotics allowed me to eat anything I want The depression is gone If I had gone to a Christian counselor, I would have wasted my time and gotten worse I knew, knew, knew--without any doubt--that my depression has a purely physical cause I refused to listen to any counselor Comment from : Mary Lamb

What people in the church need is someone who can properly mix the elements of psychology with the Bible Telling people that the root of their problems is sin and not reading the Bible enough is not the proper way to help people a lot of the time Sometimes there is chemical imbalance in the brain, OCD, ADD, all kinds of disorders that need to be located so you can focus on what kind of things to be reading and what is exactly causing your sin The people that would simply cast out psychology just because "it's of the world" are completely discrediting the hard work of the people that used the Bible as a way to help them research psychology Everything is not perfectly laid out in the Bible The Bible is something we must have in mind and use as our guide but God made out minds so that we could look at the things around us and apply the Bible to those things so that we can help those around us and help guide others to Christ Also, how do you expect there to be outreach in the world of mental illness if we only use the Bible as a way of outreach? Outreach and getting people to God is not always done by preaching the word, most of the time it is done by little conversations where people can see your beliefs and how God has helped you If you just tell someone that's struggling that the reason they struggle is because of sin and not flooding God, you're probably going to turn them away from God even more People are made to seek God but because of sin they will actively seek to avoid Him if being pushed by Christians too much There has to be balance when bringing people in, and for that matter we don't even understand the Bible well enough as to say for sure when we've gone into the world too much and that's why God gives us Grace Comment from : jewl joel

I was a little bit disappointed by the misconception that biblical counseling consists of someone beating another believer over the head with the good old ‘you need to pray more and read your Bible more’ brA true biblical counselor skillfully works through another believers problems in such a way that’s informed by insights from science, but always in agreement and never counter anything that the Bible teaches regarding human nature, sin, suffering and sanctificationbrAre there qualified secularly trained believers that can provide a similar service? Maybe, but as he accurately said, their theological knowledge and training is so minimal in comparison with likely antibiblical theorems built either on Freudian or Jungian world views which are about as far from the truths we know about human nature from the Bible as they could be Comment from : callecoxxx

Problemsশ্বর আমাদের সমস্যাগুলিতে সার্বভৌম এবং তিনি আমাদের জীবনে উপস্থিত আছেন এবং আমাদের পরীক্ষার মধ্যে কাজ করছেন যদিও আমরা এটি অনুভব করি না এবং এমনকি যখন আমরা এই মুহূর্তে সন্দেহ করি। আমার ট্রান্সপ্ল্যান্ট সার্জারির পরে আমি উদ্বেগ এবং হতাশায় ভুগছিলাম কারণ আমাকে বেশ কয়েকটি মেডিতে রাখা হয়েছিল যার মধ্যে তিনটি পার্শ্ব প্রতিক্রিয়া ছিল। Comment from : Rafiqul Bhuiyan

I want to be a Calvinist psychologist How do I obtain education for that Comment from : D k

Short answer is YES !! Long answer - Freud was motivated to develop his psychology discipline for one reason, he hated the Christian doctrine of sin and the sinful nature He wanted to reduce all human foibles to a "mental illness" in order to eliminate any guilt associated with the terrible things people do and their uncomfortable moods and feeling that are the result of a sinful nature and turn them into a "psychosis" All in the service of erasing sin So in the case of psychology the answer is YES !!! Comment from : Karcharias

Hahaha Calvinist psychologist? Who knows how our minds are working? They don’t work from the Calvinist point of view They are determined Stupid… Comment from : Love God

While im aware psychology has moved on from the days of Freud, he is still perceived as the godfather of said discipline He being Jewish saw himself as the continuity of Sabbati Zevi who professed in 1666 to be the long awaited jewish messiah Heavily involved in Egyptian occultism he [Freud] came to prominence during europe's occult revival where likes of Nietzsche advocated for the undermining of the christian structure of family values and the esteeming ones self as god As someone who has experienced depression and anxiety all my life (childhood trauma) psychology has never helped me, it has often however helped me make myself godlike, feeding my pride and self dependancy However, mental health occasions i experienced over many years has indeed weakened me to the point where i seek God more than i seek myself Im aware the good men in the video are referring to conservative biblical therapists, but if the study of self was helpful in the christian life, why has the christian church largely rejected it from the days of its revival through freud, and especially so for 500 years since the Reformation We could say that the further we get from the fall, the more we see in the way of dysfunctional mental health issues, but we know scripture speaks about those who struggled with mental health Let's take spurgeon who no doubt experienced clinical depression Paul Washer says that people writing biographies on spurgeon wrongly bang on about how good his photographic memory was Washer goes on to say Spurgeon wasnt significant in his ministry because of his memory, rather because he was made weak through his suffering, and that suffering continually brought him to Christ 'Spurgeon wasnt born Spurgeon' I think of the christians struggling in North Korea and China, God makes sure his word gets through, not conservative psychology Perhaps our problem is that we are too strong, not too weak We also need to remember that Psychology is a social science, not a hard science which were often founded by Christians anyway Freud was clearly the opposite, and christians in the field are largely the exception Comment from : Andrew

He is a christian who use Human "strength" living in "Adam " mode who want to be like " God " giving a comment Comment from : kenny servo

Great dialog Very helpful Comment from : Dylan M

I understand what Horton is saying however, he himself stated some years back that SIgmund Fruit & Carl Dung was an occultist who passed himself off as a scientist Comment from : Chris Sherri

There is no grace in the teachings of Freud, Rogers, Skinner, or Jung - common or otherwise Horton should know better Comment from : DAC

Psychology is philosophy of the soul and contrary to Scripture Comment from : Carl Moore

This is just another example of how the church has bought into the world's methods, proving that they don't believe that the Scriptures are sufficient for all of life Dr Godfrey gets it Psychological counseling is anathema for a true believer Comment from : Joseph Mellen

Calvinistic licensed psychologist here :) Comment from : Will Gold

Question: “So what do you think about secular psychology?”brbrAnswer: “Calvin!” Comment from : Sal Paredo

Maybe Psychology is a mental illness? Comment from : Marius Muller

The issue to me is a good theologican SHOULD be familiar with the psychology of the biblemost are not because they do not work with people risking vulnerability as the counselor does Simple example: Christian family has a 13yo son He is acting out They see it is sin and rebellion They take action Another person with more understanding (wisdom) realizes this boy feels shame about how he is developing and stops taking showers at school and feels depressed The parents failed their son and he was left to his own to work this out God is not a magic genie that gives clarity to shame issues we carry within Once this boy was given some science about puberty and his parents had proper expectations (dad) he felt more secure within his family so the sting of his friends teasing him did not devastate The more vulnerable the issue the more we hide unless we find a SAFE person that will listen Why is it the answer man churches have the least amount of vulnerability? No wonder people flock to the psychologist! You would be shocked at how many, unless you remain naive to protect your church system (traditions) Comment from : Groove Master

The typical Psychologist/Psychiatrist does not look at a person in the image of God but more as a physical anthropology, that is, humanity is an advanced evolutionistic animal Comment from : Mark Sellers

Why not rule out all medicine that was developed and practiced by Jews, secularists and others? In fact, Why go to a non-Christian mechanic, store, lawyer, etc? Comment from : Jay Shirley

Where is RC? This first speaker has a lot of biblical issues of what he said Comment from : F H

Exactly, I don't like the terms "disfunction" for sin, except when I am using it as grace to describe what is going on in my family without going into details Like saying "unkind" or "mistreat" instead of abuse, as a way to honor my father and mother Comment from : Renewal Creations

Yes, I do, apart from the grace of how I have seen God work in people's lives My family has been in bondage to counseling, psychology, medication, and tried to bring me into bondage with that and so have other believers and strangers who believe that (my) life can be solved by counsel, when it is either the might of God that can lift you out, or the trial is for growth, or living your life according to the counsel of God' word, or trusting Him to sustain and protect or lift you out of the sin and choices of others I worked six for several psychologists and only God (His spirit and His word) can divide a person 's heart and perceive their ways and counsel them and heal them and lift them out of a situation And although God has given charge over our parents of how to raise us and others can come into our lives and sin against, our upbringing and our gender is not to blame Wisdom is powerless without God's might or open hearts or open opportunities You can counsel a barren woman all you want, but you cannot help her conceive or open her womb Comment from : Renewal Creations

Why calvinist psychologist rather than Biblical psychologist? Having said that, the training for psychology is based on secular educational tools That has to influence the trainee, unless they are spending a great deal of their study time discerning what they have been taught by the Biblical plumbline If their answers don't align with the secular thought, they are likely to fail the subject I wonder how many students of psychology commit to this and take a biblical stand in their course Comment from : Think Before Saying

Interesting that Spurgeon suffered from depression hmmm Comment from : Uly

I believe we should seek medical mental help but i disagree with they said "beyond sin and grace" All deficit in life is caused by general sin from Adam, and progress in the secular world is by God's common grace Comment from : All Things New

So true There's this funny thing where so many of the people I look up to are Presbyterian - Tim Keller, Michael Horton, and two of my teachers in highschool brbrWhat Mike is saying here is so profound We have to know the truth so well that we can appreciate it outside the faith and draw the lines between what is common grade and what is falsehood Comment from : No Chill Bill

Does anyone here believe in spiritual warfare? Comment from : CG Ryder II

Psychology is neither medical nor science I wish I could have seen the entire conversation but it appears that the the one response was just to pander to the one presenting a case for psychology We need to find a Calvinist psychologist???? John Calvin would have slapped that man Sorry, but it's true Read through Calvin's Institutes again! We don't know enough about psychology to present a clear argumentation against it???? As pastors WE DO have sufficient argumentation against psychology It's called the Scriptures! Pastors also have to learn about the methodologies and practices of psychology and psychiatry to see where it is antithetical to Gods ways in order to present a clear biblical apologetic This was the same argument during the Civil War so that pastors would bend into sending their people to a psychologist to deal with shell shock This is primarily how psychology entered into the church All psychologists believe man is three parts and not two parts in being created in the likeness and image of God Because since man is body, soul, and spirit, they argue that a doctor is for the care of the body, a pastor is for the care of the spirit, and the psychologist is for the care of the soul Hence, they are the soul care providers NO! Pastors are Mankind is only body and soul/spirit A doctor is for the care of the body But a pastor deals with the spiritual aspect of man since the three parts of that soul/spirit is where the mind, will and emotions exist Soul, spirit, mind, heart(emotions) are at times used interchangeably in Scripture Knowledge of a little Greek will reveal that to anyone who desires to honestly search it out But do not take my word for it Anyone with doubt should read books by Peter Breggin who is a psychologist but not a Christian who speaks out against his own field of practice His writings show how what is being practiced in the field of psychology is not psychology but science fiction and more close to witchcraft than it is medical science This is a man who has been ostracized by his own peers and is not able to have any of his new writings published for exposing the truths about what is being practiced in that field Any pastor who sends their people to a psychologist or God forbid, practices psychology within the body of Christ, they have rejected their calling as shepherds and will one day give an account for being willfully ignorant and allowance of another authority to enter in and present a form a sanctification (which is a discipline of the mind unto obedience) which is not sanctification, but behavioral modification (which is primarily about making your emotions feel good) I could write much on this topic and anyone who would like to engage in a respectful conversation about the issue I would make time for it Either over the phone or in person Comment from : Nouthetic Counseling

All things "psyche" are directly linked to the soul, are they not? If our pastors are not equiped to handle matters of the soul isn't that a huge indication of a major deficit of the pastoral care of the flock? Yet we have all sorts of secular "experts" on matters of the soul who will tell the flock all sorts of deeply horribly incorrect diagnosis and solutions to their problems Meanwhile never actually getting to the heart of the matter, only merely glossing it over with false assurances and medication It's a secular patch job and a shabby one at that I shudder to think about the inadequate options available to those of us in need of actual biblical answers to our problems of the psyche As Christians we need to step it up I think of the puritan writers who wrote whole books devoted to matters of the soul Is it possible we have lost touch and are being fooled by secular thinking? There are things that need medication and medical treatment, but shouldn't we be able to recognize the difference? Comment from : Marjie Young

Be weary of the guy wearing a PINK tie telling you God can't do what a psychiatrist can MAN should not dress like WOMAN The two most common mental illnesses are depression and anxiety and God can easily heal those along with any other just like He healed Nebuchadnezzar and the maniac chained up Comment from : Thomas Harp

I met with a psychologist for the first time yesterday I knew he was not a believer When I mentioned myself as being a very honestly rebellious youth he tried to correct me and asked, “is it rebellious if you are honest about it though?”brTo which I replied, “ohhhh I know I was rebellious and just because I was honest about my rebellion didn’t make it less so It made it worse so Because, I explained, I made conscience destructive choices in order to hurt myself and others I knew, and my rebellion was with intent “brHe didn’t correct me after that I don’t think I will Be meeting him againbrHis office was in the Masonic center and that surprised me/ didn’t surprise me brDiscernment must be exercised in all places The spirits must always be tested no matter where they are As Jesus said to Peter, “get behind me thee Satan!” brEven the elect can be manipulated Full armor Comment from : Gawaniponygirl

What Dr Godfrey says here is so true In my experience, its hard to find good, solid, theologically-minded people to actually help when these situations arise in people's lives Far and away the vast majority of those I know who have went to a "Christian psychologist" or a "Christian psychiatrist," these poor souls have been given quite unhealthy and unbiblical "treatments" Sin is never dealt it Repentance is never called for Trusting in the Triune God is not even mentioned It's take this pill, believe this about yourself, work harder, you can do it if you just look within, etc, etc, etc Comment from : Ehuds Dagger

This is really complex subject matter! I've learned that I, as a Christian, am responsible for seeking the truth in God's word and rejecting any concepts that contradict it I put this to practice during my counseling sessions (and even in my discussions with mentors) Just because I am the patient, doesn't mean I "shut off my discernment" when I'm speaking with my therapist In other words, I believe therapy to be a very helpful tool in a believer's life as long as they are keeping to the word of God and questioning anything that should give them concern Comment from : Emily

The Bible is psychology! The Greek psuche is where we get our English psyche It is translated soul or mind in scripture; so I ask you, who knows the mind of man better than God? br So much of this so-called Christian Counseling today is nothing more than secular counsel with a pinch of God’s word to make it sound spiritual I have been a pastor/counselor for more than 28 years I have seen the damage that secular counsel does to people I lived through it and came out victorious by the word of God! No psychotropic meds, or psycho-therapy Just faith in the promises of God!!! br Try trusting the Lord, and do not put your confidence in man Psalm 118:8brIn Jesus love,brPastor Brett Comment from : Pastor Brett

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